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Mix Challenge - General Gossip Thread

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Mister Fox
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Mix Challenge - General Gossip Thread

#1

Post by Mister Fox »

Want to talk about the Mix Challenge in general?

Did you enjoy the last Challenge? Did something bother you?
Please type away :tu:

Sunda
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Re: SONGWRITING COMPETITION - SWC01 September 2017 - Submissions until 24-09-2017 11:59pm GMT+1/CEST

#2

Post by Sunda »

Hi there,

My name is Danny and as an rapping beatmaker from the netherlands,
i go by the name of Sunda and i'm the founder of Bawah Tanah Group an hip hop collective.
I'm now trying to learn the art of recording,mixing and mastering,
learned about your website through Adam at RealHomeRecording.com.
Seem like a verry cool thing you've set up here, but how exactly do i enter
the mix challenge or how can i submit/upload instrumental beats or completed songs (multitrack sessions) to you guys?

https://soundcloud.com/bawah-tanah-group

Hope to here from you soon,
Peace & Blessing.

Sunda

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Re: SONGWRITING COMPETITION - SWC01 September 2017 - Submissions until 24-09-2017 11:59pm GMT+1/CEST

#3

Post by Mister Fox »

Hi Sunda/Danny - welcome to the forum.

I've been made aware that Adam of Real Home Recording made a quick video last night to talk about the Mix Challenge. That was very nice of him.


I moved your question to the "Gossip" thread, which is for general discussions about the Mix(ing) Challenge, and to answer questions.
Sunda wrote:
Sun Sep 17, 2017 10:37 CEST
but how exactly do i enter the mix challenge or how can i submit/upload instrumental beats or completed songs (multitrack sessions) to you guys?
I think you should first dive into this thread, which is the official rule set of the Mix Challenge:
http://www.mix-challenge.com/forum/view ... hp?f=8&t=2

This should clear the basics. Every challenge/competition on this community has a separate rule set. You are being reminded of the rules and guidelines with every multi-purpose thread (current running challenge).



As for the question "how do I enter / participate?":

Simple... create your mix (or in case of the Songwriting Competition, your production), upload it to a web space of your choice and then link to your entry on the forum (in the corresponding thread). Just make sure to make the content downloadable. I see you're using SoundCloud... Download is not that easy anymore without signing up to SoundCloud first. Not everyone is going to do that, so please keep that in mind.



As for "how can I submit / upload multitrack sessions for others to mix?":

Ideally, you should get in touch with me first and provide me with a preview track. Maybe you have more than one track that causes you headaches, and we can decide together which track to go for. For the Mix(ing) Challenge, please keep in mind that the track should be finished already.

You then create a multi-track package, bundle it with the preview mix (ideally as offline version and link to an online stream), add track info's like BPM and Song Key, etc. Please also write down some general words as to what this production is about and what future participants are allowed to to. You can check previews challenges to see what this is about (see second post of the multi-purpose threads). Then pack everything as RAR or ZIP and get it to the staff (in this case, me). Ideally via the Mail Script, but PM to me works just as well (I just prefer mails in this case, for better handling). To get the files to me, you can use your own webspace, or you can use services like DropBox, GoogleDrive, etc.

We then go into the so called "Integrity Check" phase. This is basically checking if your tracks are clipping free, or need minor fixes. We also talk about possible twists/rules for the future Challenge in question. This is a manual process, and you will not be kept in the dark. If you've never provided multitrack packages for others to mix, I'll (as of this moment) walk you through. Once everything has been ironed out, your production will be added to the pool.




I hope this clears your initial questions.
If not, feel free to ask in here. :tu:

Again, welcome to the forum!

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Re: Mix Challenge - General Gossip Thread

#4

Post by Mister Fox »

The following question has been taken from the Mix Challenge 37 thread:
http://mix-challenge.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=103
Tbase2000 wrote:
Wed Oct 18, 2017 23:37 CEST
So...I'm still so confused about giving feedback to people's mixes. Where does that forum exist? I feel like once you post your mix it's should be open season on feedback. Is it a general idea that nobody wants feedback here? I've never seen that before so I'm just baffled.
The idea of the "multi purpose threads" is first and foremost get your mix submitted and properly documented. The biggest feedback that you can get, is by the song provider. Only this counts for the second Mix Round. And nobody else can judge the mix any better than the song creator himself/herself.

This doesn't mean that you can't give/get feedback - but please not necessarily during the initial submission period. Though depending on the commentary with this particular discussion (also, how many people would request/use this thread), I can always kick off a parallel thread with "feedback" that I can then fuse with the main thread after the Challenge in question has ended (in fact, i tried this previously for "late submissions", it didn't work out).

Else, please wait until the Challenge is over, then give feedback to each other at your hearts content. In fact, I highly encourage that.


Tbase2000 wrote:
Wed Oct 18, 2017 23:37 CEST
I know everybody thinks their mixes are the best and all...but lets be realistic...we all have flaws. Being a new person in this community I'm just curious how you interact. Is this like a close group of people who have been competing against each other for years or what? Speak.
Okay... please tone down your behavior a bit... you're been actually quite aggressive since you've been on this forum, and I'm starting to get a bit annoyed with this.


A lot of people are old-school participants and are members since day 1, yes. But that doesn't mean it's a closed group. This is just how the challenge works!

The learning factor is from listening to each other, and picking up ideas for your future mixes.

Hence the idea to document what you did (to a certain extend). And as mentioned above, once the challenge in question has ended, you can give feedback to each other as much as you like. This however happened rarely in the years of the the Challenge's existence.



I'm terribly sorry if this is not an answer you might be looking for.

Tbase2000
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Re: Mix Challenge - General Gossip Thread

#5

Post by Tbase2000 »

I don't really turn down much so we will see how it plays out I guess. This random thread doesn't have any feedbacks in it so I'm guessing that's not a good sign.
Nobody critiques each others work here...just say that's the case. No big deal.
I will be as professional as I can.


(follow up post 1 hour later)
And I totally disagree that nobody besides the "artist" can give valuable feedback. He is going to give you "nice" feedback to tell you in 2 sentences how you didn't make the 2nd round and that's a wrap. It's to much for the artist to handle. Apparently you don't like feedback. Does that scare you? Maybe people can specify in the future whether they want it or not. Even if I don't win the contest I can tell you that your bass is out or your vocal is perfect. You eliminate your best contribution to the contest by condemning mixers as failures because they don't have a winning mix and then dismissing that they might have a valuable opinion. Who else has worked on those tracks? All those choices along the way and nobody has an opinion? You have a new crew of people coming in that might want to work a little differently so you might want to think about the old keep your mouth shut protocol. Or don't... It's your site.


(follow up post 5 minutes later)
I personally don't work with the "Keep your mouth shut" protocol very well. For future reference



[warning=Mister Fox]combined several posts into one - you obviously know of the edit function, use it[/warning]

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Re: Mix Challenge - General Gossip Thread

#6

Post by Mister Fox »

I'll try to keep the answers brief.
Tbase2000 wrote:
Thu Oct 19, 2017 02:08 CEST
I don't really turn down much so we will see how it plays out I guess.
24 hour temp ban due to disruptive and disrespectful behavior in the Songwriting Competition thread.
Use this time to cool off, rethink your approach.


Tbase2000 wrote:
Thu Oct 19, 2017 02:08 CEST
This random thread doesn't have any feedbacks in it so I'm guessing that's not a good sign.
This thread is for general gossip, feedback about the challenges, feature requests, idea sharing. This thread is NOT for Song Feedback - this is what the Multi-Purpose Challenge Thread is for. Or, if I kick off a parallel thread in the corresponding subforum, then there. (see my post above)


Tbase2000 wrote:
Thu Oct 19, 2017 02:08 CEST
Nobody critiques each others work here...just say that's the case. No big deal.
I will be as professional as I can.
It is encouraged in the corresponding threads, but not in here (the Gossip Thread). And ideally not during the Challenge to influence others. If people don't give feedback to each other, that's a pity but I can't force them to either.


Tbase2000 wrote:
Thu Oct 19, 2017 02:08 CEST
(follow up post 1 hour later)
And I totally disagree that nobody besides the "artist" can give valuable feedback. He is going to give you "nice" feedback to tell you in 2 sentences how you didn't make the 2nd round and that's a wrap. It's to much for the artist to handle.
This is where you're mistaken.


First and foremost:

The "client" gives as much feedback as he/she thinks he/she needs to give. We're simulation a real world scenario after all. The feedback can be several paragraphs, this can be just a couple of bullet points. You also have to keep in mind that the participation is not just 10 people anymore (see Statistics pages on the main page), but now more than 20. Now imagine getting more and more participants in the future...

I already encourage the client to listen to the material right after it was sent in (this is where edits/re-uploads prior to Round 2 are a problem, not to mention that each participant cheats himself/herself), and already note down some bullet points for the Round 2 feedback. This speeds up things tremendously.

However, we have to set a limit for all of this. And I think it's still fine and more than forthcoming to give the top 15 positions (out of fictional 25+) feedback, and then select about 8 participants for the next round. Before the participation skyrocketed, each participant got feedback. In fact, this was a fairly recent point of criticism that two people were left out of criticism (shortly after the move to this dedicated place).

You obviously don't like that - but you also didn't propose a way better solution that everybody can agree on.


Second:

I am not against participants giving feedback to other participants. But do you know how chaotic a thread can get if there are entries every other day, and you instantly get 20 times feedback from users right after the upload? Then suddenly the participant can be like "you're right, let me fix that real quick", which results in a re-upload and ultimately a rule violation. This is getting chaotic real quick.

This is not open season and "let's help each other out", it's a competition!


Tbase2000 wrote:
Thu Oct 19, 2017 02:08 CEST
Apparently you don't like feedback. Does that scare you?
Again, I'm not against feedback. In fact, I'm anticipating it.


Tbase2000 wrote:
Thu Oct 19, 2017 02:08 CEST
Maybe people can specify in the future whether they want it or not. Even if I don't win the contest I can tell you that your bass is out or your vocal is perfect. You eliminate your best contribution to the contest by condemning mixers as failures because they don't have a winning mix and then dismissing that they might have a valuable opinion. Who else has worked on those tracks? All those choices along the way and nobody has an opinion?
Again, the option is there. People just don't use it (yet).

But maybe I need to clarify "encouraged feedback" in the rule set just as much as I have to re-clarify the "recommended perceived loudness" and "rules for picking up goods", only to be skipped. (hint hint)


Tbase2000 wrote:
Thu Oct 19, 2017 02:08 CEST
You have a new crew of people coming in that might want to work a little differently so you might want to think about the old keep your mouth shut protocol. Or don't... It's your site.

(follow up post 5 minutes later)
I personally don't work with the "Keep your mouth shut" protocol very well. For future reference
At this point, I really don't know if you want to get into a fight with me on purpose or not.

Once more - the feedback towards other participants of either game is encouraged (in fact, there is more for the community planned, but one step after another). So is shop talk and asking questions how person xyz did effect abc. If people don't do that after the main challenge/competition has ended, I am not to blame for this.

I can only repeat myself: during the challenge, it can be chaotic and influencing opinions (hence me saying "please, maybe after the challenge"). After the game has ended, the doors are open. Knock yourself out.

You can also already learn a lot from just listening to a track, reading what people did (depending on how well their documentation was). You can still ask questions in public and of course always via PM (if you don't want to share secrets in public). The possibility is there. How it is handled however, that is up for fine tuning.


But I get the idea with your recent posts that you're unhappy with how the Challenges work (for years at this point). You're unhappy about the lack of participation (Songwriting Competition, which I am as well btw). And I can understand the frustration, I mostly talk to myself in here if it comes to ideas, possible new features, etc.

So if you enjoy being here, then don't go the easy route with being abrasive and aggressive. Stay objective, be respectful and mindful to fellow community members, share your ideas and concerns. I can't do more than spark a discussion, offer a playground for people. If there is no other interaction, then I can't do much more than apologize.

Tbase2000
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Re: Mix Challenge - General Gossip Thread

#7

Post by Tbase2000 »

I think we are just having some communication issues. The translator sounds dismissive sometimes...I don't think you mean it that way though.

Ideas on how to fix the feedback participation:
1) Once you submit a mix it is final which is great. It forces you to put up your best work. That being said, it's still easy to make big mistakes. If people were allowed to review other's mixes before they submitted them then I think those mistakes would get caught and the mixer would have the chance to fix obvious mistakes. Examples: Someone forgot to include the piano, Kick is way to loud, to dry, to wet....You don't have to take anybody's advice but if 3 people tell you your kick is subby and your vocals are dry...then they probably are.
2) I personally don't like to listen to someone's mix until after I am done with mine. Lately I would just submit my mix and then go to listen to others to compare. This always inspires me to want to make some changes, tweaks and new ideas. After you see what others have done to your tracks you want to try harder. The time to do all of this is before you submit though.
3) You listen harder to someone's song if your doing a review and trying to help. Stop, rewind, 1:25 the song clips, 30 different tracks listened for and evaluated. When you write something down you remember it. This is also the time when you will discover the tricks you say to document in the submission. How did you get that kick? Those guitars are amazing....If your doing an evaluation of their mix then you have the chance right then to ask them about it.
4) Would this hurt the competitiveness of the competition? I don't think so. There are some great mixers in here that would probably never ask for help or a review. What it would do is quicken the ones who consistently fall short. Maybe it's their speakers and room need to be corrected. Without a little dialog and some inspiration...it might take them a while to get where they want to be. Maybe they are still mixing with bad headphones....

So...if we had a chatroom that would be cool, but how about allowing people to post "I have a mix, can you give it a listen, message me for link" before they submit. It's the ones who will not make it to the 2nd round that will lose interest in the contest over time because they always lose and never get the feedback they are looking for. As the numbers grow they might not get any feedback at all.

Studio Saturn
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Re: Mix Challenge - General Gossip Thread

#8

Post by Studio Saturn »

I somehow agree what you are talking about. As much as I appreciate the rules sometimes they will bite you in the a***. I have posted on the recent mixing contest and I was mixing in my cans and I submitted it. And later on when I listen to it via my speakers I realised I have over EQed and decided to delete them. I didn't wait until someone to tell me what is happening or the artist tell me for second round. If the mix that I have done reaches to second round, I would say what the hell is going on. Cause, the problem that I have noticed is over EQ like getting lost on the process of mixing. So I deleted it. Cant i do a better version? hell yes. But I can't cause of the rule. The funny part is, how do you know if I register with another user name and submit again? There is no way you can notice that. But for some reason there is a rule but still can be bent. To some it up, I don't believe the rules works. It is just a rule which doesn't have a controlling mechanism. Like I said anybody simply create an account and submit another version. In fact it will make people not to participate in this contest.

If one says this place is a place of learning, let bigginers learn from their mistakes, let them listen other people mixes and allow them to ask that person and call it even copy his approach and get result. that way they will learn. I don't care if someone asks me how I mixed the song and improve his mix and chosen to be a winner. Gosh, I just helped a brother and become a winner. That makes me a good mentor.

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Re: Mix Challenge - General Gossip Thread

#9

Post by Mister Fox »

I finally got some spare time to answer this and continue the discussion. Sorry for the waiting time.


Tbase2000 wrote:
Fri Oct 20, 2017 15:36 CEST
2) I personally don't like to listen to someone's mix until after I am done with mine. Lately I would just submit my mix and then go to listen to others to compare. This always inspires me to want to make some changes, tweaks and new ideas. After you see what others have done to your tracks you want to try harder. The time to do all of this is before you submit though.
I think this is the biggest crux you've been criticizing - sitting things out until the last day.

In fact, this has been a point of criticism since day 1 of the Mix(ing) Challenge. The people that submit first can be taken for inspiration to make certain things better, or "copy" it. But ultimately, you're cheating yourself with this (IMHO and all that - I've been there).

The other thing is... I don't know how to pull off hidden submissions without adding more workload to handling the challenges. Technically, I can force certain forums into "wait for moderation" mode, so that each post needs to be moderated first. The user in question can modify the post during that time, while it remains hidden from all others.

But this is a lot(!) of extra work. And it would also add to the frustration as people keep asking "did somebody submit yet? Why should I even join then?!" (see the SWC02 debacle). So I'd rather not go this round and fundamentally chance something, that's been working since 2014.



Tbase2000 wrote:
Fri Oct 20, 2017 15:36 CEST
So...if we had a chatroom that would be cool, but how about allowing people to post "I have a mix, can you give it a listen, message me for link" before they submit. It's the ones who will not make it to the 2nd round that will lose interest in the contest over time because they always lose and never get the feedback they are looking for. As the numbers grow they might not get any feedback at all.
That's a valid argument, which is not that simple to answer/comment on.


On one end, I completely understand your points and would love to see more user interaction indeed (I'm in complete agreement). On the other end, the notion that "people are turned off" didn't happen so far. At least not to what I've experienced since the early days, and neither on a mass scale.

As of this moment, pretty much every participant gets feedback still. Unless somebody adheres to the Rules & Guidelines to really only comment on the Top 15 or Top 20, maybe depending on a scaled participation listing (which is a thing up for debate for a rule set overhaul - this can get super complicated real quick - but the general rule is already existing!).

In fact, I've actually seen the other way around... A (considered) fail in the game gave the participants the drive to do better, to continue to join, to keep at it until they eventually make it at least to Round 2. That alone is adding a lot and tells so much about the participants. Then again, I see this from my perspective as CTO/Host/Admin and also former "participant-for-fun".


The other thing is a little bit tricky.

Having a Chatroom would mean: Extra resources, extra setup/registration, monitoring that section, maintenance, etc. Basically, extra time and staff needed for this (which I don't have). So I'd rather not go that route.

There could be a thread running in parallel for "beginners" to ask for feedback. But this brings me to the argument that we (the client, the host, the participants) are not looking for 10 participants which all have the same mix. The client looks for variety, creative ideas. Even mishaps, which might turn into something great and interesting with possible fine tuning in Round 2 (which is up for the client to decide).

I'm a bit divided on this. On one hand, it's a disadvantage towards those that do not use/want/need "feedback" via PM or an open thread. On the other, it could indeed help those that are completely lost. But how do you find a middle ground to all of this?



Studio Saturn wrote:
Fri Oct 20, 2017 21:45 CEST
I somehow agree what you are talking about. As much as I appreciate the rules sometimes they will bite you in the a***. I have posted on the recent mixing contest and I was mixing in my cans and I submitted it. And later on when I listen to it via my speakers I realised I have over EQed and decided to delete them. I didn't wait until someone to tell me what is happening or the artist tell me for second round. If the mix that I have done reaches to second round, I would say what the hell is going on. Cause, the problem that I have noticed is over EQ like getting lost on the process of mixing. So I deleted it. Cant i do a better version? hell yes. But I can't cause of the rule.
Kind of an unfair argument if you ask me.


Since pretty much day 1 (it's still part of the rule set!), we (the original founders) were saying "don't submit your track instantly... sleep one night about it, get back with fresh ears. And once you're happy with it, then submit". I'm speaking from experience in this case, pulling a lot of all-nighters to get a mix out of the door. Your ears tire, so does your objectivity.

In fact, the actual quote it:
"We do recommend to not send in your mix within the first 24 hours of the Challenge. Take a day off, give your ears time to relax, take another listen the next day. Your entry is final - no re-submissions with changes allowed unless you're selected for Mix Round 2 "


Considering you have 21 days to submit your edit, you could have realized this small mishap, and fix it before submitting your production.



Studio Saturn wrote:
Fri Oct 20, 2017 21:45 CEST
The funny part is, how do you know if I register with another user name and submit again? There is no way you can notice that. But for some reason there is a rule but still can be bent. To some it up, I don't believe the rules works. It is just a rule which doesn't have a controlling mechanism. Like I said anybody simply create an account and submit another version. In fact it will make people not to participate in this contest.
Well, there is a valid concern that you don't know if somebody just registered under a new name and then proceeds to resubmit his entry. Unfortunately, there is no real way for me to prevent that. Unless I have a deep suspicion about somebody, and do cross checks via the admin panel. Not to mention - what if I'm wrong with my suspicion?

I, however, do not think that this particular rule is a failure. You ultimately only cheat yourself with this rather than learn from the experience.

I also don't think that this has influence on "people not participating". I think this has a lot more to do with time management rather than being turned off by something.



Studio Saturn wrote:
Fri Oct 20, 2017 21:45 CEST
If one says this place is a place of learning, let bigginers learn from their mistakes, let them listen other people mixes and allow them to ask that person and call it even copy his approach and get result. that way they will learn. I don't care if someone asks me how I mixed the song and improve his mix and chosen to be a winner. Gosh, I just helped a brother and become a winner. That makes me a good mentor.
The big picture for this discussion was: when to do that.
After Mix Round 1? After Mix Round 2? During the Challenge already? Maybe people should really only PM each other?


Feedback on this would be great, also possible ways to port the ideas, etc.

Let's go from there :tu:

Tbase2000
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Re: Mix Challenge - General Gossip Thread

#10

Post by Tbase2000 »

Nobody will touch their mix again after it is submitted. ..unless they make it to round 2. The time for "check out my mix is before they submit. These new people coming in are expecting/hoping for some semblance of a community. How do I ask for help? Does anybody give feedback? I'm not interested for myself quite frankly...there just doesn't exist an easy answer to tell the new guy who joins tomorrow. Is he supposed to spam everyone? No. Give them a blank thread where they can post their mixes before they submit. Private the person asking for a review so the thread doesn't get clogged. Most importantly...tell the new person that the option is available but it's not guaranteed anyone will private you back. Will anybody take the time to listen and offer feedback. I guarantee you some will because they want to feel part of something. This is a small group...act like it.

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