MIX CHALLENGE - MC092 June 2023 - Winners announced

[Davias]

Here is a link to my mix..
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1QqMZws ... p=drivesdk

I agree with you on mixing on Cans...i have some Sennheiser HD280s and whenever I mix in them the mixes sound amazing in the headphones but then sound awful on other playback devices...so now i just use them more for reference.

I have a similar monitoring setup...2x 20 year old fostex pm5s which really arent great bit do the job. No eq correction on my output signal so the low and low mids are always extremely hard for me to judge. In an apartment so monitoring is always at very low levels so my neigbors dont hate me. I have some very nice Event ASP8s boxed up that I used to use when I had an actual studio facilty some 20 years ago...too big for my small apartment though. I do have a 31 band 2 channel EQ and room meausrememt Mic device but havent went through the trouble of EQ'n the room as it would involve too much work for me rewiring my studio for the little bit of mixing I do now a days...

I love these contests as they really are helping me get better. Most of my "semi pro" mixing career some 20 years ago was in the rap/hiphop genre which usually was mixing vocals into a 2 track instrumental beat so it was more of a pseudo mixing/mastering hybrid that i got really good with bit had almost zero expreience with other genres of music, and individual instrument tracks. I can tell from a year or 2 ago when I joined this mix contest form that my skills have definitely improved trying to compete with all these other engineers mixes from all over the world. Really enjoy being exposed to all the international genres and flavors of songs to mix too.

Thanks for the link !

I didn't noticed any particular tonal imbalance, the main vocals are a little bit upfront, while the backing vocal are a bit too low volume for my taste. The kickdrum seems buried under the other instruments. The accordion seemed a bit loud too. Beside that the mix sounded pretty decent.

I also enjoy how the mix challenge is bringing us many different genres and recording techniques to play with each months, I hope someday we will have a drum n bass track to mix

[PistolPete]

Here is a link to my mix..
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1QqMZws ... p=drivesdk

I agree with you on mixing on Cans...i have some Sennheiser HD280s and whenever I mix in them the mixes sound amazing in the headphones but then sound awful on other playback devices...so now i just use them more for reference.

I have a similar monitoring setup...2x 20 year old fostex pm5s which really arent great bit do the job. No eq correction on my output signal so the low and low mids are always extremely hard for me to judge. In an apartment so monitoring is always at very low levels so my neigbors dont hate me. I have some very nice Event ASP8s boxed up that I used to use when I had an actual studio facilty some 20 years ago...too big for my small apartment though. I do have a 31 band 2 channel EQ and room meausrememt Mic device but havent went through the trouble of EQ'n the room as it would involve too much work for me rewiring my studio for the little bit of mixing I do now a days...

I love these contests as they really are helping me get better. Most of my "semi pro" mixing career some 20 years ago was in the rap/hiphop genre which usually was mixing vocals into a 2 track instrumental beat so it was more of a pseudo mixing/mastering hybrid that i got really good with bit had almost zero expreience with other genres of music, and individual instrument tracks. I can tell from a year or 2 ago when I joined this mix contest form that my skills have definitely improved trying to compete with all these other engineers mixes from all over the world. Really enjoy being exposed to all the international genres and flavors of songs to mix too.

Thanks for the link !

I didn't noticed any particular tonal imbalance, the main vocals are a little bit upfront, while the backing vocal are a bit too low volume for my taste. The kickdrum seems buried under the other instruments. The accordion seemed a bit loud too. Beside that the mix sounded pretty decent.

I also enjoy how the mix challenge is bringing us many different genres and recording techniques to play with each months, I hope someday we will have a drum n bass track to mix

Thank you very much @Davias for taking the time to review my mix and provide feedback. Its always quite interesting to have another set of ears on the mix to see what sticka out and things I may have missed. I definitely agree with your feedback and glad the overall tonal balance sounds good. Ove really been trying to get better with those low mids in my environment. Agree on the vocals too. I noticed many ofnthenother mixes had the background singers much higher so I was wondering if mine was too low.

I definitely think it would be fun to mix some drum and bass, another genera in which I have very little experience.

[PianoPung]

Am I disqualified for writing wrong file name, carefully filled out by a rule that i was told to read carefully? And for omitting 1,5 seconds of silence? So, there were some new rules about file naming I missed? Please remove the old rule I stupidly believed was the rule! This will most certainly happen again if not.

I didn’t even see the don’t-cut-silence-rule, so I suppose that is my bad. I honestly thought that everything was OK as long as the entire song was in the file. I repeat; the entire song. The imaginary mastering dude can easily add silence, but I understand that the rules of this game can not be questioned.

Probably my first and last entry…

[Barry M]

Am I disqualified for writing wrong file name, carefully filled out by a rule that i was told to read carefully? And for omitting 1,5 seconds of silence? So, there were some new rules about file naming I missed? Please remove the old rule I stupidly believed was the rule! This will most certainly happen again if not.

I didn’t even see the don’t-cut-silence-rule, so I suppose that is my bad. I honestly thought that everything was OK as long as the entire song was in the file. I repeat; the entire song. The imaginary mastering dude can easily add silence, but I understand that the rules of this game can not be questioned.

Probably my first and last entry…

I made similar mistakes to you, such is life.

I'm not sure why that would make it your first and last entry?

Try again, do better

[zed999]

Am I disqualified for writing wrong file name, carefully filled out by a rule that i was told to read carefully? And for omitting 1,5 seconds of silence? So, there were some new rules about file naming I missed? Please remove the old rule I stupidly believed was the rule! This will most certainly happen again if not.

I didn’t even see the don’t-cut-silence-rule, so I suppose that is my bad. I honestly thought that everything was OK as long as the entire song was in the file. I repeat; the entire song. The imaginary mastering dude can easily add silence, but I understand that the rules of this game can not be questioned.

Probably my first and last entry…

You're still in it aren't you? Wild card if you're picked? Me too - 16 bit. Such is life, it was still fun to mix.

[Davias]

I wasn't aware of the silence cut rule....

I had some annoying noise at the beginning and the end due to some processing, so I just trimmed the parts without music... (after trying to pinpoint the issue over many tracks, and the noise was still there)
Got a yellow line for that but my mix passed anyhow...
Someone suggested that master engineers like a bit of blank before/after but I don't get it, if they need that they can always move the waveform in their daw to add silence at the start...

EDIT : Also, if I got it right, we only have 2 wild cards for life... so I wouldn't waste a wildcard so easily...
I'd prefer two wild cards per year I swear

EDIT EDIT : I believe such "errors" wouldn't matter much in real life scenarios. If I was a customer, and someone sent me the wrong file format... if the mix sounded good I would just ask to have the right format, could be a matter of minutes with modern tools to fix the issue.
I mix in 44kHz and whatever bitdepth my daw is allowing, due to CPU constraints, no matter what are the the tracks formats I have to treat, I convert all files to wavpack or flac to spare space. so at the end it is just a conversion matter before sending the final file.

[zed999]

I wasn't aware of the silence cut rule....

I had some annoying noise at the beginning and the end due to some processing, so I just trimmed the parts without music... (after trying to pinpoint the issue over many tracks, and the noise was still there)
Got a yellow line for that but my mix passed anyhow...
Someone suggested that master engineers like a bit of blank before/after but I don't get it, if they need that they can always move the waveform in their daw to add silence at the start...

EDIT : Also, if I got it right, we only have 2 wild cards for life... so I wouldn't waste a wildcard so easily...
I'd prefer two wild cards per year I swear

EDIT EDIT : I believe such "errors" wouldn't matter much in real life scenarios. If I was a customer, and someone sent me the wrong file format... if the mix sounded good I would just ask to have the right format, could be a matter of minutes with modern tools to fix the issue.
I mix in 44kHz and whatever bitdepth my daw is allowing, due to CPU constraints, no matter what are the the tracks formats I have to treat, I convert all files to wavpack or flac to spare space. so at the end it is just a conversion matter before sending the final file.

I think the silence thing is good. If they were mastering an album, the space between tracks becomes part of the artists art, it shouldn't be a mastering decision? Otherwise It gives them confidence nothing is missing if they have irrefutable silence at each end.

Good point about the wild card, but you can't save them forever or they may as well not exist? From the providers comments it's usually quite clear which of the 16 or so they prefer, if mine got that far I'd take that into account - they really love your mix - play the card. If you percieve you're making up the numbers/also ran - don't?

Converting from 48 to 41 and back is best avoided I believe. If I paid someone to mix my tune and they did that, whether I could hear the difference or not I would be suspicious that the quality had degraded. I also usually work at 41 for the same reason as you, but I enjoy the limitations. For this one I ran the project at 48 as the files were that quality, it buys some Nyquist filtering headroom with some VSTs, then messed up... because I wasn't paying attention.

[Davias]

I wasn't aware of the silence cut rule....

I had some annoying noise at the beginning and the end due to some processing, so I just trimmed the parts without music... (after trying to pinpoint the issue over many tracks, and the noise was still there)
Got a yellow line for that but my mix passed anyhow...
Someone suggested that master engineers like a bit of blank before/after but I don't get it, if they need that they can always move the waveform in their daw to add silence at the start...

EDIT : Also, if I got it right, we only have 2 wild cards for life... so I wouldn't waste a wildcard so easily...
I'd prefer two wild cards per year I swear

EDIT EDIT : I believe such "errors" wouldn't matter much in real life scenarios. If I was a customer, and someone sent me the wrong file format... if the mix sounded good I would just ask to have the right format, could be a matter of minutes with modern tools to fix the issue.
I mix in 44kHz and whatever bitdepth my daw is allowing, due to CPU constraints, no matter what are the the tracks formats I have to treat, I convert all files to wavpack or flac to spare space. so at the end it is just a conversion matter before sending the final file.

I think the silence thing is good. If they were mastering an album, the space between tracks becomes part of the artists art, it shouldn't be a mastering decision? Otherwise It gives them confidence nothing is missing if they have irrefutable silence at each end.

Good point about the wild card, but you can't save them forever or they may as well not exist? From the providers comments it's usually quite clear which of the 16 or so they prefer, if mine got that far I'd take that into account - they really love your mix - play the card. If you percieve you're making up the numbers/also ran - don't?

Converting from 48 to 41 and back is best avoided I believe. If I paid someone to mix my tune and they did that, whether I could hear the difference or not I would be suspicious that the quality had degraded. I also usually work at 41 for the same reason as you, but I enjoy the limitations. For this one I ran the project at 48 as the files were that quality, it buys some Nyquist filtering headroom with some VSTs, then messed up... because I wasn't paying attention.

but the customer doesn't have to know about the conversion, if it sounds good it sounds good

[zed999]

Can't argue with that!

[Mister Fox]

I would quickly like to address a couple of recurring questions, as there seems to be a lot of confusion/misunderstanding happening right now.

Am I disqualified for writing wrong file name, carefully filled out by a rule that i was told to read carefully? And for omitting 1,5 seconds of silence? So, there were some new rules about file naming I missed? Please remove the old rule I stupidly believed was the rule! This will most certainly happen again if not.

Correct, your entry was "tagged disqualified" due to not adhering to the given filename template from page 001 and the bundled "TL;DR Rules.txt".

Using the provided filename template has been a topic even before the Mix Challenge audio community went independent. The template changed throughout the years, of course. The "double underline" variant has been in use since at least MC081 / November 2021. I made the stricter rule book enforcement clear in October 2022. Due to severe time constraints (this whole endeavor is run by one person), the Mix(ing) Challenge rule book has last been updated in February 2023.

Please do not claim that there were some new rules / recent changes.

I didn’t even see the don’t-cut-silence-rule, so I suppose that is my bad. I honestly thought that everything was OK as long as the entire song was in the file. I repeat; the entire song. The imaginary mastering dude can easily add silence, but I understand that the rules of this game can not be questioned.

I wasn't aware of the silence cut rule....

I also got pulled up on the time of the track. Mine was a few seconds too short. Why is that a problem if it's silence?

There is no rule on "omitting silence" - as in "silence at the beginning / end of a mix" - yet. The Mix Challenge - Addendum for the Statistic Sheet and Wild Card mechanic clearly states: "currently for information purposes only".

It is merely an indication that your material might have been cut shorter than what the Song Provider intended. This is not good practice on various levels. As already mentioned by other users, this makes it impossible for a follow-up mastering process to set proper fade in/out. Other possible issues are way too soon cut off reverb trails, which can't be easily recreated at a later state. And finally, cutting things "too close" can result in transient smearing (during processing / rendering). Not every tool responds sample accurate. This is why (for example) multi-tracks should be provided with at least one bar extra in terms of silence in front and back of the track, to prevent these issues.

Please don't make up reasons for disqualifications. The information column on the Statistic Sheet tells you what went wrong.

...

EDIT EDIT : I believe such "errors" wouldn't matter much in real life scenarios. If I was a customer, and someone sent me the wrong file format... if the mix sounded good I would just ask to have the right format, could be a matter of minutes with modern tools to fix the issue.
I mix in 44kHz and whatever bitdepth my daw is allowing, due to CPU constraints, no matter what are the the tracks formats I have to treat, I convert all files to wavpack or flac to spare space. so at the end it is just a conversion matter before sending the final file.

...

Converting from 48 to 41 and back is best avoided I believe. If I paid someone to mix my tune and they did that, whether I could hear the difference or not I would be suspicious that the quality had degraded. I also usually work at 41 for the same reason as you, but I enjoy the limitations. For this one I ran the project at 48 as the files were that quality, it buys some Nyquist filtering headroom with some VSTs, then messed up... because I wasn't paying attention.

No, it is not a simple "conversion matter".

With sample rate conversion and (worst case scenario) even bitrate truncation, you introduce a (possible) loss in quality of the provided material. In case of sample rate conversion, you will loose out on fidelity. In case of bitrate truncation, you will introduce noise and ripple effects. By converting into a "lossless format" to save HDD space, you inadvertently also add more strain to your CPU for "decoding". Unless the material is being "converted to WAV" prior to loading temporarily anyway. Then this is a moot argument in one way or the other. And depending on the behavior of the "decoder", you might still introduce possible conversion issues.

48kHz barely eats any extra CPU cycles. If anything, they are lower than with 44kHz, as 99% of ADC/DAC on the market these days run "internally" at 48Khz, or a multiple of that value. The only problem I see, is with a rare handful of analog consoles with built-in recording modules, that only work at a certain specific sampling rate (the Allen & Heath QU-series comes to mind). I had one former user send me some... strong words behind the scenes, stating "I won't join anymore in the future", unless the material is "only provided in the sampling rate the console works in".

I am sorry, but this will never be the case. We will always have access to either 44kHz or 48kHz material. In rare occasions, maybe even 96kHz. And your task will always be: same quality in, same quality out (bar minimum, 24bit). Another point of consideration on the topic of "mixing in 44.1kHz/24bit, even if 48kHz/24bit" -- with the recent mass introduction of "Mixing in Dolby Atmos", the source material must be in either 48kHz or 96kHz now (the engine won't work otherwise!). Before you ask - "Mixing in Dolby Atmos" might only be a topic for a "Special Challenge" in the foreseeable future, not the regular games.


To give you a perspective however:

I still do mixes on an Intel Core i7 920 CPU from late 2008, overclocked, Windows based. As equivalent on the Apple side of things, is an Apple iMac 11.3 from 2010. My projects are played back from a 500GB SSD from late 2010s. I can still easily run more than 64 channels with 3-5 plugins per channel and 8 AUX tracks with reverb/delay/etc on them - in real time at 128 samples (RME hardware). And while I do understand that not everyone has access to a super-modern or beefy rig. Considering that everything "Mix Challenge" has been conducted on a 12+ year old rig (at this point) is an argument to maybe reconsider how you handle things on your setup.

Probably my first and last entry…

While this is definitely your personal choice, let me please also point out that you joined our community this July 2023. By participating in any of the games, you also agreed to adhere to the given and well established Rules and Guidelines.

I am merely providing a platform and uphold the rules to keep the game is fair for everyone. You choose your own adventure.





On to the topic of Feature Requests:

Is there a place where we can find all the links submitted for each contests ?

Not currently.

Collecting each link and then turn that into a dedicated post, is a lot of extra work. I do this for the Songwriting Competition (different concept), but not for the Mix(ing) Challenge. This might be addressed in the future, which in turn might also fix possible issues with non-accessible content.

EDIT : Also, if I got it right, we only have 2 wild cards for life... so I wouldn't waste a wildcard so easily...
I'd prefer two wild cards per year I swear

As of this moment, the "Wild Card" mechanic is limited like this on purpose, to add to the learning factor.

If you would get a "Wild Card" reset every 12 months, you could just continue to make mistakes (in cases even on purpose), and any repercussions would be rendered meaningless.

Something that would interest me greatly, would be some kind of marker to say whether the participant was professional or amateur.

I found a possible forum engine add-on to introduce so called "flairs" for user accounts (additional to roles - this is how the "Wild Card", "Song Provider" or "Blacker" icons are handled). But I need to extensively test this (usability, visuals, etc).

If it works in a meaningful way, I might consider implementing it. But I won't make any promises for an immediate implementation.

The other thing this site misses IMO is an easy way to show your appreciation of posts like Christoph_k's above. A simple "like" button would do it.

I saw / experienced how detrimental upvote / downvote features were on other communities. This won't happen, sorry.





Quick update on the evaluation process:

Our Song Provider is still touring. He will keep us updated.



I would like to redirect the conversation back to "talking shop" (mix techniques) and giving feedback to each other. Anything else Rule Book related, please either post in the corresponding General Gossip thread, or reach out in the #gossip-questions-answers section on Discord.