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Songwriting Competition - General Gossip Thread

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Mister Fox
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Re: Songwriting Competition - General Gossip Thread

#121

Post by Mister Fox »

Oh I have plenty of ideas to keep things interesting, people involved and a bit out of their usual comfort zone.

However... regarding "genre: free to select"... some statistics might give you a little bit of insight:
Statistics / Songwriting Competition (on main homepage)

Clueless
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Re: Songwriting Competition - General Gossip Thread

#122

Post by Clueless »

Ah, okay ,got it

So, possibly a seasonal thing.
Well, I'll await the surprise of March and see if I can yet again fail to meet the criteria :D

Many thanks Mister Fox,
:tu:

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Re: Songwriting Competition - General Gossip Thread

#123

Post by Mister Fox »

There is a big songwriting game in February, true... but I think you're on to something.

Just look at the numbers for 2019 again, and compare it to the genres around that time. I remember that I tried to reach out to magazines, but we didn't get a lot of coverage. However, I did(!) start to post more on Facebook groups and other audio communities.

I'll see what I can come up with for March 2020. It might not be "genre: free to select" though. April lies on a whole different ballpark (it's pretty much set in stone already).

intuition
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Re: Songwriting Competition - General Gossip Thread

#124

Post by intuition »

I am requesting a change to the "Winners podium" part of the rules. Here's what they say right now:
depending on the participant amount, the winners podium changes. Seven or fewer participants (<=7 participants) results in a "Sole Winner", eight or more participants (>=8 participants) results in a 3-position "Winners Podium"
I haven't participated in a long time, partly because this rule makes it feel really bad to be in a 7-participant challenge. If there are 7 participants, only one person gets a prize, so 6 lose out. If there are 8 participants, 3 get prizes, so only 5 lose out.

It feels really crappy to come in second place in a 7-person competition, because you don't get anything, but you would have gotten something if an additional person had entered regardless of whether that person would have beaten you or not.

If you insist on awarding fewer prizes when there are fewer participants, you need to come up with a new system that increases the number of winners more smoothly, so that people are not punished for entering smaller competitions.

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Re: Songwriting Competition - General Gossip Thread

#125

Post by Mister Fox »

I am sorry that you feel that this system is not balanced enough.

However, you bring up an important point - and that is that I need to update the section on "Rules and General Information for winning goods" (first thing once I'm back at the keyboard later today). Looks like I didn't edit this properly (apologies for that)


The full set of rules are actually:
  • if there have been less than four (number: 4) participants in the current running game, there will be no licenses available to win. This is to prevent a "participation medal" situation (source: the main section)
  • depending on the participant amount, the winners podium changes. Seven or fewer participants (<=7 participants) results in a "Sole Winner", eight or more participants (>=8 participants) results in a 3-position "Winners Podium" (source: the TL;DR section)
This set of rules have been agreed on by the community since late 2018, and have been used for over 15 games at this point.




:idea: Let me please point out the statistics of the Songwriting Competition:
Songwriting Competition - Participation Statistics

In 2019:
We had 2x less/equal 7 participants, 3x less than 7 participants, 9x more than 7 participants -- that is 8,92 participants per year on average

In 2020 (so far):
We had 2x less/equal to 7 participants, 1x even less than 4 participants (2 actually), and 1x far exceeding 7 participants -- that is currently 8,2 participants on average over the course of the last 5 months

Compared to 2018, that is twice the amount of participants - with simpler rules, way more detailed premises, listening to "genre requests" (some of them worked, some didn't), and promoting the ever living heck out of the SWC. Yet over the course of over 1,5 years (17 games), only 4 times a "bummer crossover-point" type situation.


:arrow: You also have to take into consideration, that a lot of these licenses "to win" are worth several hundred EUR. They are far from being mere "freebies" that can just be thrown around. Our very generous license sponsors wouldn't be okay with that.

So you actively have to work for them (at least a little bit - please take note of the last two paragraphs).



You see... I do invest a lot of time to get people involved (the majority of my spare-time goes into there), to think up and write premises, promote the games on Forums/Social Media/Discord/IRC, talk to magazines and radio hosts, invite musicians. Remember - I am running this ship (mostly) alone (with the occasional behind the scenes help).

I wouldn't say that the recent games were bad in terms of both premise and genre selection. Although I do see a certain trend towards more relaxed music than straight up rock/metal (not everyone is a guitarist). Which is why I'm constantly shifting ideas for future SWCs. Because I do want more participants due to more appealing/easier to approachable genres. We've also had it plenty of times already, where people were simply okay with merely participating. Mainly the Mix Challenge (where there are also only 3 winners compared to 60 participants on average), mind you. But for the Songwriting Competition as well.

The members of our community really mostly join for the fun and the learning factor. And I'm happy to read that positive feedback over and over through private mails, PMs, Social Media posts, etc.


But then again - I do get your criticism. It is valid. However I can't change much (or more like anything) in your favor.

In fact - this whole thing of "<=7 participants for giving away goodies isn't fair" could be easily remedied, if there would be more participation per month. In order for that to happen, more people need to know that the Songwriting Competition exists. The best way to do that, is to talk about it, spread the word, invite people. And I can't do that alone.

:!: Yes, it is that simple.




Apologies once more that this section of the "Rule Book" is a mess. Totally my fault. :face:
I'll get to it ASAP and address this in a follow-up Newsletter.

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Mister Fox
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Re: Songwriting Competition - General Gossip Thread

#126

Post by Mister Fox »

:arrow: A couple of words on SWC035 / July 2020:

I've... been a bit peeved with the results of the Songwriting Competition lately. And I really don't know anymore where the problem resides. Please let me explain.


In 2019, still recovering from a rocky start with the SWC in it's early days, we had 6 games with 10 or more participants. In fact, in 2019, the highest participation was 13 individual entries. We had a Videogame Soundtrack type theme (genre: free to select), a SWC about a possible digital blackout (Electronic / Orchestra), then we had our first attempt at Big Beat / Electronic (in honor of Keith Flint from "The Prodigy"). In May we had an outstanding run with 80s New Wave/Synthwave parallel to the Superbooth 2019. In August 2019, we also had a fairly good run with (Mainstream) Progressive House - even though not everyone went that route. And then the last game with a good amount of participation that year was with the "Muzak/Elevator Music" genre. Other than that, we've dropped down to 7 participants, in some cases even lower.

The year 2020 in comparison doesn't look good at all. The only game where we actually exceeded 10 participants and skyrocketed to 16, was right at the beginning of the lockdown phase due to the ongoing pandemic - with running a "Chill-Out" songwriting competition. The follow-up game was even another "genre: free to select" - just to offer an distraction, get people involved - and we barely made 9 participants. Other than that, the biggest flop (so to speak) was February 2020 with "Contemporary Pop" - which barely got 2 participants. Then we also had yet another fall-out in terms of users not liking the way the community works (this has been a topic behind the scenes), and now we've even dropped down to barely(!) 4 participants once more.

Want to get an overview of the statistics? You can find them here:
Statistics for the Songwriting Competition (updated: 25th July 2020)



I really, really try to be as diverse with these songwriting games as possible. I even ported game requests like "can we have an EDM game? This will surely give us more participants", I've ported other ideas and games. For the first time ever, we even tried to tackle "Hip Hop", because I know that there is a huge community out there wanting to create that type of content. With or without vocals.

Instead, we skyrocketed on the Mix Challenge - from 60 participants on avg, to 109!
I still don't know how this happened - since I didn't change the formula in terms of promotion.




:arrow: This is starting to make me wonder, what is actually going wrong. Or rather, what am I doing wrong.

As in:
  • is the genre I select each month wrong?
  • is the premise not easily understandable?
  • are the "audio examples" not suitable enough? (like, bad examples, or too many?)
  • am I not doing enough promotion for the Songwriting Competition? (as in: do I talk to the wrong people? I can only do so much cross promotion on other places and platforms before being asked to leave)
In fact, the first comment that was thrown at me with SWC035 was "I kind of wish it was a pure nerdcore comp though", with the sub-tone "the theme might be off-putting to newcomers". I mean... at this point, what am I even supposed to do if not even requested genres result in the participation I hoped for, and was also kind of promised that type of participation (see EDM based SWCs).

Truth be told, each Songwriting Competition since mid 2019 takes me about 8 hours to set up (find a good theme and genre, set up a premise premise, find a suitable image, audio example sourcing, etc). And just for transparency reasons - on top of the hours I invest each month for setting up our recurring games, I reach out in about 5 large Discord servers (from Youtubers, Music Communities, etc), and invite about 10 more people through PM (plus ask them to spread the word). There are constantly posts on Twitter and Facebook, with me doing straight up direct invitations towards audio schools, communities, specific songwriters I know, etc. Now I am also trying something new with a small riddle that I will hopefully pull off each month (to boost the interaction). I post in three Facebook "Songwriting" groups several times a month (I tried to reach out in more groups, but they all do not allow "promotion", I was also removed from two of them). I've tried Reddit, but was put on hold pretty much instantly. Then there is KVR Audio (the news section, the forum), Gearslutz (songwriting forum), online magazines and print magazines, companies that the Mix Challenge community collaborates with. We' ae even getting shoutouts several times a month on two radio podcasts.

Which boggles my mind even more as to why there is such a lack of participation.
As you can see, I am definitely not non-active. I just honestly don't know what to do anymore. :thinking:


I have the next two Songwriting Competitions set in stone, and August already fully set up. But I have a feeling that even though I will once more invite various communities, and in fact reach out to magazines yet again (in hope for coverage for just the Songwriting Competition), we will barely scratch 10 participants. And this is starting to get really frustrating at this point, and is tanking my energy levels. Not to mention, I've ran out of ideas.

I had some great ones like an Acoustic Instrument based game and/or I wanted to do another "Make Music Day" to unite our global music community at our still troubling times - although the response in recent years wasn't so great (most notably around "Make Music Month" in June). I still toss around ideas about a "Ballroom Music" type competition. But other than that... I really don't know anymore where this route should go.

I did find out however, that songwriting games with vocals are not really a thing on our community. At least not yet. I also found out which route the games should ideally mostly go (soundtrack, chill-out and ambient oriented, the occasional metal track) - but where is the challenge if you constantly work within your comfort zone and only the "theme" changes?




:arrow: Which brings me to the following...

I was considering possible new License Sponsors for the Songwriting Competition. In some cases, I've even reached out already. And while a lot of these companies are always up to the task to support small communities, not to mention fun games like these (because these devs love doing what they do, they want people to access their tools, and it is also free promotion for them). Having an incentive to pick up "new free goods" all fine and well. But considering the participation amount, and the value of some of the tools offered... It just doesn't feel right to me. At least not right now.

I've talked with befriended audio communities about this. And they all brought up the valid point that "it feels like people only join to win stuff, and then never return once they're satisfied". After the results of recent months, and in this context, I am considering changing the thresholds for the Winners Podium.

Maybe to something like:
  • 1-winner-podium from equal or lower 10 participants (previously equal or less than 7)
  • 3-winners-podium with 11 or more participants (previously more than 7)
  • should we exceed 25 participants for three months in row, I might consider offering a 5-spot winners podium (if all license sponsors agree)
Technically, I could make this change immediately. But I want to remain fair, and see how the attendance will be in August. If the numbers are still not going up, and things do not continue to get better throughout the rest of the year, I sadly have no other choice but to implement this.




:arrow: What I will change for August however, is adding another possible point to score for the "Bonus Point Mechanic".

I still want people to learn to not push things for the sake of "loud = good". But I also don't want to dismantle the fun of the overall game. So instead of being strict (like for the Mix Challenge, where the stakes are way higher), and got for a straight up disqualifications (for the time being), I will be like "learn how to properly name your files, stay within a certain loudness limit, score an extra point for that". Getting Bonus Points for proper documentation, giving suitable feedback and naming your files accordingly - this mechanic can/does have huge influence on the score sheet and gives the "learning effect" a whole different spin.

On that behalf
 ! Bonus Info
As of August 2020, I will introduce a fourth point to the "Bonus Point Mechanic"

1 bonus point for submitting a mix equal or lower than -14 LUFS
Since I download every entry for backup and listening purposes anyway, checking all files really quick is but a couple of mouse-clicks.




:arrow: To close this out:

I already hear the uproars from a mile away - but I've been talking about this topic (lack of participation) for months, and considering the workload that is put into every Songwriting Competition... for every possible participant of this game, for every forum user, for you(!) ...something needs to change.

Let me be clear - that once you join the game, you are already a winner in my book. Why? You've stepped beyond your comfort zone, created something and presented it to the world. You also got feedback for your content (which is mandatory for this game) and in some cases even tips and tricks where you can improve your skills. Having the chance to win something, is just added bonus.

However - if you're merely joining just to win something, and you find the participation too low, get frustrated even- there is one simple remedy: spread the word about the Songwriting Competition. The more participants, the more feedback, the bigger the winners podium.



I am at my limits. I can't do this alone anymore. I am in desperate need of your help. As in you, the reader and forum member.

And the only thing I ask of you, is simple:
Please spread the word about the Songwriting Competition. Not just once, please keep at it.



Thank you for your time.

becsei_gyorgy
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Re: Songwriting Competition - General Gossip Thread

#127

Post by becsei_gyorgy »

It would be best to ask (PM) those who attended once/twice and never again. They should be persuaded to give an honest answer. :smile:

I only can write my experiences:

1. Advertising: i only read about this competition by chance once on KVR last year, on reddit e.g. never. It may have been, but nowhere have I met with the advert of the competition anywhere else. But probably this is my fault.

2. Genre: yes, most of us (and on KVR) are not singing songwriters, so when the monthly genre is ambient/chill/electronical there are more applicants.

3. I know people who have explained to me why e.g. one-synth challange is much more successful and enjoyable to participate in.
Their answers: a) no mandatory feedbacks b) no open voting system

(I can already see the answer: that’s the point of this competition.
No, it's not true: the point is writing music, there's a lot to learn when you step out of your comfort zone and always try to do something else.)

I don’t want to explain these in more detail, I think several people have done it over the years. And you don’t have to be a psychologist, why didn’t those who tried once as a newcomer, come back because of the above two things.

Olli H
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Re: Songwriting Competition - General Gossip Thread

#128

Post by Olli H »

My view of this problem.

With a couple of months experience I agree with becsei_gyorgy about feedbacks and voting system.

Personally I think the toughest part is the combined "vote and comment". If there are 10 participants, it feels very bad to me to rank positions 6-10, which quite often had to be done on quite weak reasons, especially on those cases when the genre is totally new to me.

It always feels like an insult to put someone to last position. And if I put someone to last positions, I feel I should somehow explain my choices: and bring up more negative aspects. So, after each months voting process, I find my self considering if I should skip the next competition. I just try to be honest, but still I find my self asking "how many new enemies did I get this month?"

Also, as the voting and commenting are combined:
- if I’m an early voter, the process feels like as if I’m trying to influence others’ votes. 
- If I’m a late voter, how to not to be affected what other’s said about my mix. 
- And if I’m the last voter, was it for tactical reasons, etc.?
So, whatever I do, it always feels bad.

Maybe those things are problems only to me, but still for me they are real problems. But I can live with those problems. I took them up as one explanation which might expel some potential participants.


SUGGESTION A
If we were obligated to comment every submission but voted for only positions 1-3, then commenting could concentrate more on positive aspects, and not so much on artificial ranking.

SUGGESTION B
Public comments, closed voting with everybody ranked via PM

SUGGESTION C
If there were one person who picks up the winners (and is not any of the participants), then we could be discussing about and commenting more freely songs. But it may be an impossible job to find a judge for each competition. To pick up winners from 15 submissions is much more easier process, if one is not expected to comment every submission, just some words about winners.

SUGGESTION D
Only closed voting with everybody ranked via PM. No obligatory commenting.

ABOUT COMMENTING
The natural time for discussions is always before the winner is chosen. So, if we could comment and update our songs before the judge listens to them, then we would be helping each other with our comments. Then the negative comment would actually be a helping positive comment, because the participant could do some adjustments to his / her submissions based on it.

The possibility to update one’s submission before the deadline would perhaps encourage commenting. In best case it would build up positive and encouraging atmosphere in this forum. More you comment and help others, more likely you'll get comments back. And those who silently wait for comments wouldn't perhaps get any. Commenting after the deadline makes me feel a bit smartass.

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Mister Fox
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Re: Songwriting Competition - General Gossip Thread

#129

Post by Mister Fox »

My intention with my last post was to not bring up the topic about the "feedback and voting process" yet again, especially since I have made pretty clear what is possible, and what not. I was more looking for answers as to why things (apparently) seem to go wrong, how to "extend the reach", but okay.


:arrow: Let's talk about the points regardless. Maybe we can find a suitable middle ground.



While I understand your feeling and concerns from both of you there, we will never be away with this. Neither can we focus on the top 3 only. This will only work if we have more than 10 entrants to make the game interesting. Although in some cases, this might also result in "no result" at all. So let's do a top 5, top 10? Tricky situation.

PM is always also brought up as part of this conversion, to keep things "truly private". The thing that I've realized through recent years of running this place is, people "just post" a PM, and completely ignore naming the PM properly, or writing up a proper response (time is an issue - I've been sitting on this text-block for an hour as well). I have this every month with addressing licenses, so things get confusing really quick. This is why I introduced the "spoiler engine" (or actually, phpBB introduced it to me). This offers basically the same, since on first glance you don't see any votes. Only if you have turned off scripts and/or press on this little dropdown block.

I also get your (plural) criticism regarding "giving a score doesn't feel fair" - but the counter argument is still "we are below 25 participants... once we reach that, and if we limit the voting to the top 10 or top 20 only then things would be different". We're currently obviously in a bit of a rough spot with participants below 15 or even 10, and saying "please give feedback to everyone". I honestly get the frustration, I've felt the wrath of some of you a couple of times now as well. Finding a middle ground is not easy.


Then, as mentioned a couple of times, I can't (and won't) implement a third party mechanic as this would mean setting up a dedicated engine. People would need to sign up to that engine (which means an updated TOS and adhering to GDPR rules again, since it would be a new database). Somehow I need to hope that people use the same usernames as on the forums. And then there is the fact that "outside sources" can influence the engine, which can drastically shift the outcome of the results (the more friends you have, the higher your votes, etc). Maintenance is another huge topic. I am actually surprised that I can keep the phpBB up-to-date and figure out most issues on my own.


I can in theory use the board implemented "poll engine". Especially now that I can turn it into a "hidden poll" (thanks to an extension) and also see who actually participated and who didn't. The problem here is, that once I say "you can vote for xyz positions", things start to fall apart. Not only are people not as willing to join a poll (see the the polls in this very sub-forum), people will also not use all available options. Additional to that, the "introduction" post would be awkward to read (layout wise) once the poll has been finished and auto-published. Especially if we exceed 10 participants. If I can even extend the poll points that far (only the moderators/admins of the forum can create polls, btw). It is an option, but one I am hesitant to use due to readability reasons.


We could separate the threads.As in, start a new thread for the voting and feedback process to be disconnected from the main thread until the voting period has ended. This seems to be the thing that most communities do these days. And since we're on a dedicated forum, things are definitely cleaner and easier to handle/find. There is also no problem for moderators/admins to combine threads again. The biggest issue I see here, is that this would mean more disconnected threads and communication on the forum. People not finding these off-shot threads, etc. I am not necessarily a fan of that.


Having a judge is a straight up no-no from my end. We have been there with the Mix(ing) Challenge in the very, very early days. And I've also seen this with other games and/or even big communities where a "Judges Panel" is part of an "entrance gate mechanic" to uphold the quality of the community releases. First and foremost, we would need somebody that has the time to listen to all entries. And then we have the issue of "one person is calling the shots". But what if this one specific person has a specific taste and/or work-style, and only focuses on that rather than having/offering a broad horizon. While we were still three people running the MIx(ing) Challenge, this resulted in a lot of controversy. Not to mention straight up hate mails/PMs towards on the lines of "you folks are <insert really strong insult here>, you can't understand/comment on music/art if your life depends on it".

The Mix(ing) Challenge Song Provider handling is a different type of deal, since the creator of the production gives the feedback, not an outside person commenting on others. This is my biggest pet peeve on video platforms now as well - "<insert are of expertise> experts commenting on videos/movies/games/music" - and man does my head hurt from these videos. Apologies - but I am not touching that ever again.




:arrow: So the summarized TL;DR (well, more a summary than TL;DR) is basically:
  • One Judge to give feedback and scores to everyone
    • needs to have a person that has the time every months to comment
    • needs to have a broad horizon on various music genres, needs to be objective and fair (which is hard to find)
    • one person decides the fate of everybody (which is prone to drastically backfire, can and will result in even more negativity / lack of participation)
    • In reality: won't ever happen, please stop bringing it up
  • Custom Vote System (off-page system)
    • needs extra setup and asking people to sign up to another database (additional TOS)
    • needs maintenance (updates, backups, etc)
    • can result in data mismatch (usernames)
    • can result in outside influence and vote abuse
    • In reality: interesting idea, might even offer automatic score-sheet creation. But is too disconnected from the community and needs way more extra work to keep the engine secure and running
  • Hidden Votes through Forum Poll Engine
    • needs poll engine to be adapted (settings wise), but can be pulled "private" (results are only revealed at the end of the voting process)
    • I do not know if an already running thread can be updated with a poll (honestly never tried)
    • only the introduction post can have a poll, which also means:
    • layout can turn chaotic really quick (most nktablyparticipation amount >10 people), especially at the end of the poll (once the results are unveiled - I can't "shrink" the poll on the introduction page)
    • from experience - if you're offered more than 2 points to vote for, people usually don't do it. Recent polls have also seen barely any participation
    • In reality: interesting idea, and while the engine is there, I'd need way more testing to see if things might work as wanted/desired
  • Hidden Votes through PM
    • needs clear rules for writing a PM
    • can result in chaos really quick
    • written feedback in public is still mandatory
    • In reality: while nobody knows how the other person "scored" until the results are posted, this is extra work I'd rather not have to do. And the forum currently doesn't have dedicated people for this task that are reliable. Also: the spoiler tag offers the same function.
  • Dedicated thread for votes and feedback
    • needs cross links, intro post, etc - is disconnected from the main game thread
    • voting and feedback will not change from the current system (score sheet wrapped in spoiler tag, written feedback)
    • fusing threads later is possible
    • In reality: possible, it's just a couple of extra mouse-clicks. People just need to find their way to the other thread. I am not a fan "layout and thread handling wise" though



:arrow: Which brings me to the following point by Olli H:
Olli H wrote:
Wed Jul 29, 2020 17:28 CEST
ABOUT COMMENTING
The natural time for discussions is always before the winner is chosen. So, if we could comment and update our songs before the judge listens to them, then we would be helping each other with our comments. Then the negative comment would actually be a helping positive comment, because the participant could do some adjustments to his / her submissions based on it.

The possibility to update one’s submission before the deadline would perhaps encourage commenting. In best case it would build up positive and encouraging atmosphere in this forum. More you comment and help others, more likely you'll get comments back. And those who silently wait for comments wouldn't perhaps get any. Commenting after the deadline makes me feel a bit smartass.

:idea: Here is the thing: that is already possible! :educate:

But you bring up a valid point that this is not clearly communicated in such a way. In fact, the Rule Book (sadly?) states:
General Guidelines
  • Each Songwriting Competition will have a theme and a short premise. Please stick to the given theme and premis given in each corresponding challenge thread
  • ...
  • Minor edits to your submission are allowed, but this is not a WIP forum. Your entry is final!


Considering that I am/(or maybe in the foreseeable future - one of a possible extended staff) is collecting the content after all entries have been sent in (unlike the Mix Challenge, where it's encouraged to download as the material comes in, and already write up some feedback), set up a dedicated post (see last 35 games), and then handle a quick "download backup"... One can slightly edit their entries until the links are collected and prepared for a unified post. And in fact, this happened a couple of times in recent months already.

I think you brought up a valid point here that "creating something, uploading it, getting some minor feedback, then fine tune it" is indeed more enticing and inviting. As this is not a "I have to have to create something, than hope for the best" type of deal. The idea of the Songwriting Competition is supposed to be a "just create and have fun" type of game after all, while the other challenges follow a way more strict guideline (as this is also a learning factor for the real wold out there).


Maybe we can definitely work with that. :thinking:

Perhaps we change the writing from
  • Minor edits to your submission are allowed, but this is not a WIP forum. Your entry is final!
to something like
  • While the SWC is not a WIP forum, minor edits to and re-submissions of your production are allowed. If there is really just one "final piece to the puzzle" missing, feel free to ask for feedback, get people involved, improve on your mix, edit your submission post.
  • your production must the finished and not be further edited by the time of the deadline (24th of the month, 23:59 UTC+1/CET or 23:59 UTC+2/CEST), as all entries will be collected and posted globally after the submission period, to create a foundation for the voting process

Does that sound more inviting and engaging?

If so, then setting that up prior to August 2020 is absolutely no problem (still about 48 hours left), and I can address this in the next newsletter as well. This would actually also cover the dedicated "Collaboration requests / General WIP Feedback" thread, which was basically doing that - to keep threads more clean and streamlined. But this thread was only used ever so often, and then only for one specific game.


Any further thoughts on this?
Would you word it different?

:thinking:

becsei_gyorgy
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Re: Songwriting Competition - General Gossip Thread

#130

Post by becsei_gyorgy »

Maybe I could have written to point 4th that even though someone is trying to approach or write their opinion with the intention of helping, usually the answer is "Good as is." "This is the rule and done".

But really it would be best to ask (PM) those who attended once/twice and never again.

:arrow: 1. VOTING
Mister Fox wrote:
Thu Jul 30, 2020 00:48 CEST

[*]Hidden Votes through PM
  • needs clear rules for writing a PM
  • can result in chaos really quick
  • In reality: while nobody knows how the other person "scored" until the results are posted, this is extra work I'd rather not have to do. And the forum currently doesn't have dedicated people for this task that are reliable.
This is the easiest solution (although I think the external poll system works well elsewhere).
- Mister Fox like an administrator create a new user Mr. Vote.
- When the voting is starting Mr. Vote create a post in the thread: „Let's sart Voting and PM me!” - everyone send a PM to Mr.Vote.
- Mr. Vote receive only this PM's (no junk, personal etc. mails) so, when the time is over Mr. Vote clearly see immediately who voted (with their forum name!).

It also makes Mister Fox's job easier, as he don't have to go through the forum posts who once voted who don't, searching the vote posts among the others and don't need opening the spoiler tags frequently. He will receive the votes in order, he can only copy/paste the results from PM's. (The only extra work would be a one time logout/login process into the forum when the voting time is starting and once when is over. I don't think it's a big job.)

By the way, I think with this method (and without the mandatory feedback) the voting time period could be shorter (e.g. 3 days) and then there would be a few days left to discuss who liked what, what didn’t like, who might have voted for this or that song. The next competition would not start right away.

:arrow: 2. FEEDBACK
Yes the mandatory feeedback is a very frustrating thing, especially for a newcomer. Imagine being asked to give a face-to-face opinion on the work of each of your new co-workers at the end of the first day at your new job (and vice versa). There are few more frustrating things than this. And I agree with OlliH, the timing of opinions/votes is also a dilemma everytime. There is simply no good decision and you feel bad about it.

And in the case of a newcomer who has worked all month and then gets from 10 strangers that what he has done so far is bad and lousy, it can be a bitter feeling for many. And since man generally likes to avoid failures he does not even come back.

My suggestion is that it will not be mandatory to give feedback to EVERYONE. And even then only after the vote is closed (less time would be enough for the vote than I wrote).

And I wouldn't care about the current regulations, the rules are there to improve on them.

I can't think of a simpler solution than these and it wouldn't involve any extra work. However, I am convinced that competition would become more attractive.

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